Arbor Realty Trust, Inc.
Q4 2020 Earnings Call Transcript

Published: 19 Feb 2021

[Operator:]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Fourth Quarter and Full-Year Arbor Realty Trust Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speakers’ presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. Please be advised that today’s conference is being recorded. I’d now like to turn the call over to your speaker today, Paul Elenio, Chief Financial Officer. Please go ahead.

[Paul Elenio:]

Okay. Thank you, Keith, and good morning, everyone, and welcome to the quarterly earnings call for Arbor Realty Trust. This morning, we’ll discuss the results for the quarter and year ended December 31, 2020. With me on the call today is Ivan Kaufman, our President and Chief Executive Officer.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Thank you, Paul, and thanks to everyone for joining us on today’s call. We’re very excited today to discuss the significant success we had in closing out what was an exceptional 2020 as well as our plans and outlook for 2021, which we believe will be another outstanding year. As you can see from this morning’s press release, we had another record quarter and 2020 results for one of the best years as a public company. We are very well-positioned to succeed in the current economic climate, which gives us great confidence in our ability to continue to have tremendous success in 2021. We’ve built a viable operating platform focused on the right asset class with very stable liability structures, strong liquidity and active balance sheet and GSE agency business and many diversified income streams that generate strong earnings and dividends in every market cycle.

[Paul Elenio:]

Thank you, Ivan. As Ivan mentioned, we had another exceptional quarter producing distributable earnings of $67 million or $0.49 per share for the fourth quarter. We also had a record year with distributed earnings of a $1.75 per share in 2020, a 28% increase over our 2019 results. These results translated into record high ROEs of approximately 21% for the fourth quarter and 19% for the full year 2020, which reflects a 30% increase over our 2019 ROEs. We also continue to benefit from several positive aspects of our diverse business model, including significant growth in our agency and balance sheet business platform, LIBOR floors and a large portion of our balance sheet loan book and substantial income from our residential banking joint venture.

[Operator:]

Thank you. We’ll take today’s first question from Steve DeLaney with JMP Securities. Please go ahead.

[Steve DeLaney:]

Thanks. Good morning, Ivan and Paul. Congrats on a strong close to a year that I think would have been hard for us to imagine, when we were sitting here last March for sure. You mentioned several times in your remarks, you talked about diversity. So with my questions, I’m going to go there away from the two main agency and structured businesses, if I may. Couple of days ago, we saw a Bloomberg article talking about a transaction that Starwood was contemplating about a $300 million loan, institutional loan on 1,600 single-family properties and it looked like it was just going to be a single – trying to do a single borrower CMBS execution. So that’s in the market and I know single-family realty, single-family rental, Ivan, is something you’ve been talking about for, I think about a year now. Maybe you could just give us an update your thoughts about that product and opportunity and kind of where your operation stands as we sit here today. Thank you.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Sure. We have significantly ramped up and have become the leader in single-family build-to-rent communities. I believe we have a close to $0.5 billion pipeline and have – it will now in underwriting and ready to close I would project that that volume will double and that is a great business for us we do. The construction lending, which turns into a bridge and then we do the ultimate securitization on those loans. So each transaction we get three turns on. I love that. You were able to build those communities at a similar cost that you can build a multifamily. With COVID, you’re seeing certainly a move to less density and also what you’re seeing as well as that a preferable option for people instead of buying a home, if they don’t have the down payment or if they think they’re transient. And don’t want to go through the transaction costs for that being an option. They’re great communities. We’re working with a few developers that have really developed the skill set to be able to build those products in a very efficient way, similar to at a costs for multifamily project. We love it. We’re continuing to provide financing for people who are aggregating pools of single-family rentals with the idea of ultimately doing a securitization or selling them off in pieces, depending on whether we think we can get to just securitization market in time or whether we want to just distribute those products. So those are two revenues we’ve invested in starting two years ago. They’re starting to bear a lot of fruit right now, and they’re going to represent significant amount of growth for the firm. And we just love that business.

[Steve DeLaney:]

Right. And the construction and bridge loans, are they currently - that are on the books, are they currently carried in the structured portfolio.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Paul, you can answer that.

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes. Hey, Steve. So, yes, as Ivan mentioned we’re building a pretty strong build-to-rent business, as well as the construction into bridge. So when – if it’s a bridge, it’s in the bridge product, the build-to-rent obviously funds over time. So you don’t see a significant amount of that in the volume numbers we present as the drawers get done, you do. But the committed volume is something that’s pretty significant, but yes, it all ends up in the structured side of the business bucket for now.

[Steve DeLaney:]

And Ivan, to be clear and last part on this question, you’re going to eventually, you’re going to go to a permanent loan and you’re in the process, I guess if some bridge loans mature, getting to the point where they’re stabilized and they’re going to go into a permanent, but you’ve not – to this point, you’ve not executed a securitization, is that correct, but maybe that’s 2021.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

They actually resemble very much multifamily loan, some of agency , some go on top private label program. So it doesn’t need its own securitization. It fits right in, which is remarkable. So it fits right into how business flow and process, and it’s just accretive to what we’re doing.

[Steve DeLaney:]

Okay. Thank you for that clarity. The second piece is on the resi JV. I mean, it’s been a great year for that business, obviously seeing a lot of IPOs in the space. Could you just remind us on cardinal, the channels that they’re focused on, whether it’s direct or wholesale and the percentage of the business that is refi versus purchase? I know there’s a lot of obviously concerned that refis will – refi side of the business will come down pretty materially, not right away, but maybe by the end of 2021. Thanks.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

First, we’ve been extraordinarily cautious in the way we’ve been forecasting it and we’ve been exceeding our all forecast by a lot every single quarter, quarter by quarter by quarter. And that’s been going on for quite some time. With respect to the strategy, it’s more of a retail strategy, not strategy, but we are diversifying channels. And Paul, you can answer the financial related questions.

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes. So it’s like you said, Steve, it’s consumer direct and retail. It has been and probably continues to be for a period of time, a pretty big refi component as you know. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but it’s really high percentage of the volume. However, having said that, the business is national across the country, has a tremendous retail presence as you know, home ownership is on the rise. And so we do expect that the refi business will slow down a bit and margins will compress a little bit, but we have a tremendous network and a tremendous infrastructure and a big focus on technology and believe that that business will do quite well on the home purchase side as well.

[Steve DeLaney:]

Right. I mean, the ROEs are insane right now. It can go down - volume and revenue can go down quite a bit and still have incredible ROEs. Thank you both for your comments.

[Operator:]

We’ll take our next question from Charlie Arestia with JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

[Charlie Arestia:]

Hey, good morning guys. Thanks for taking the questions. A bit of a follow-up, I guess, to the first question in terms of the topic, but kind of looking at it through a different lens. Given the focus on the New York area in particular, it would be great to get your thoughts on the competitive environment there. And I’m assuming that the single-family rental is part of this, but some of the unique challenges that New York City faces in particular with regards to some of the demographic trends and population shifts that are happening there.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

First of all, if you don’t have a significant concentration in New York, I think what you’re doing in New York is you’re going through a recalculation of rental values as well as sales values you’re seeing. A lot of rentals, you’re seeing a lot of sales in fact record numbers right now. But at a significantly reduced sales price percentage, as well as rental. At these new basis, we’re quite bullish. We like New York City, we think come September when the schools open, people go back to work, you’ll see the city begin to return to normal. You just have to underwrite appropriately for what the right rentals are, and you have to take into consideration its potential for an increase in real estate taxes. So our portfolio is performing well there. We’re optimistic that the leasing will be done. It’ll be done with some concessions and it’ll be done with reduced rental rates. So underwriting appropriately, getting the right thrust on our bridge loans is critical and giving the loans the right amount of time to hit those numbers. But I think come September, we’ll look back and say, wow, we began to return to normal fairly quickly, it’ll be a new normal.

[Charlie Arestia:]

Okay. Got it. Thanks. And then one more, I was wondering if you guys have ever disclosed sort of rough breakout of what percentage of your origination volumes are to existing or previous Arbor borrowers. It feels like, things are certainly improving more broadly, but the sector is really leaned on those preexisting relationships to drive volumes. Curious to get your thoughts on the mix of previous borrowers versus new relationships.

[Paul Elenio:]

Charlie, it’s Paul. We have not disclosed that in the past, but Ivan can certainly give some color. We obviously have tremendous relationships and do a significant amount of business would repeat borrowers, but he certainly can give you some color on the market and what’s happening today in those areas.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Yes. Our business is built and people always keep in mind in the multifamily sector. When you have a borrower who oftentimes a lot of limited co-borrowers, and you’ll see a repeat of not just that particular GP, but of the limited to buy all the properties, not uncommon for us to have 10 to 20 loans with a particular borrower and constantly we engage them with that particular borrower, but that’s the nature of our business. And even when we do deal with mortgage brokers, we can generally more importance, we’re very loyal to us and then a repeat level of business from that mortgage broker and that’s very consistent.

[Charlie Arestia:]

Thanks very much guys. Appreciate all the color.

[Operator:]

Our next question is from Stephen Laws with Raymond James. Please go ahead.

[Stephen Laws:]

Good morning, Ivan and Paul. You both touched on the strong volumes and then certainly last year closed with the record volume is $2.7 billion. Can you talk about year-to-date volumes or expectations here that we should think about as we model out volumes for 2021?

[Paul Elenio:]

Sure. Let me start, Stephen, just giving you some color on how January closed out and then Ivan and I will talk a little bit about globally, how we view things for the rest of the year. So in January, we did about $500 million of agency loans. I think if you go back and look at our production in the past year, in the second quarter we did $1.4 and the third quarter, we did $1.5. And obviously in the fourth quarter, we put up a month the number of $2.7 billion. So on a run rate right now, we’re probably tracking to $1.4 billion, $1.5 billion for the first quarter and possibly for the second quarter. Ivan will give some color on where he thinks the agency business goes from there. On the balance sheet side, we’ve also been very active. We’ve had a large balance sheet pipeline as well. And I think in January, we did about $400 million to $450 million of volume, and we had about $50 million run off. So we’ve had about $400 million of net growth in January to our book. Don’t know what pace, that happens, it’ll all depend on what roll off we see going forward. That’s always a challenge, but our pipeline is very, very strong and we’re very confident we’re going to be able to grow this book pretty substantially in 2021 as well.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Yes. We’re off to a good start. We have a great pipeline. Our bridge pipeline or balance sheet pipeline is extraordinarily strong, where many people were very negatively impacted on the pandemic, didn’t have the right liability structures, didn’t have the right banking relationships. We didn’t miss a beat. So we’ve gained market share. We’ve gained a lot of momentum. The securitization market, we believe is going to be extremely attractive going forward. And I think that will continue similarly along the lines, if not greater than what we did last year. So we’ll see good growth in the balance sheet portfolio and hopefully a consistent level of building up pipeline and continuing at the levels that we closed in January, if things remain constant.

[Stephen Laws:]

Great. Thanks. Thank you both for the color on that. So just another on the financing side, Paul, can you talk about the recent CLO the market reception plans for future issuance and how we should think about that for sure?

[Paul Elenio:]

Sure. So as you know, we did…

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Paul, let me cover that a little bit.

[Paul Elenio:]

Sure.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Because we really can’t talk about going forward with what we’re doing in impairs what we do, but the securitization market is tightened dramatically from where it was 30 days ago, 60 days, and 90 days ago, we think has had tight levels, almost as tight as it was pre-COVID. And we have probably the greatest brand in the CLO market. We have a good collateral position on our lines and we always maintain a very good percentage and mix of CLO debt, the total debt. So we think that market is perfect. We got very aggressive to load up our balance sheet, understanding that mark with tighten and we feel very optimistic about us being able to access that market. Paul, you want to add some color?

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes, that’s exactly what I was going to say. Stephen, it’s a big part of our strategies as you know. We’ve been a serial issue or someone who’s had a tremendous brand and reputation. And as Ivan said, we manage and by looking at the market and seeing when we think it’s appropriate to access that market. And it’s just part of our normal strategy and we continue to do that as we move forward and we’ll see why don’t if we get there and what had happened.

[Stephen Laws:]

Great, appreciate the comments.

[Operator:]

Next question is from Jade Rahmani with KBW. Please go ahead.

[Jade Rahmani:]

Thank you very much for taking the questions. In terms of the structured finance business, the on balance sheet business, two questions, first, what drove the almost $1 billion of originations. Maybe you could give some color as to how many deals that encompassed, what percentage were repeat customers and how much were refinancings of existing deals. And then secondly, how are you thinking about the ROEs in that business, given the spread compression that we’re seeing in the stabilized data types.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

With respect to refinancing of our own portfolio, it’s a very small percentage. That’s not something we custom, I really do, unless there’s a accretive reason to us and to the borrower. But that’s not a primary aspect of our business. We’re always proceed with a tremendous question of it’s a bridge to bridge levers our own or somebody else’s. With respect to the ROEs, we generally look for around anywhere between a 10 and a 14 with an average of a 12 is where we originate to. We actually think with where the securitization market is. I think we can probably see a little bit of a lift in that. Relative to the volume that we’ve done, it’s almost as though it was like we were one of the last man standing, most people were still looking their owns. They were very impaired by COVID by being over leveraged and not being prepared. And therefore, really we’re not in a position to originate the loans. And a lot of us to really step in, particularly on the larger loan side, a lot of firms were out there doing extraordinarily aggressive. And they were originating a very tight spreads without the right structure. Many of those firms got hurt, kind of left a little bit of a voice will give us an opportunity to build some large loan positions with great structure and great pricing. And even though, competition’s returning to the market, I think we’ve gained real favor and originations of those products with a good percentage of our product being repeat customers.

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes. And just to add to that, Ivan, all as absolutely correct. And from a number of transactions perspective, we did about $950 million of straight bridge loans, the rest where some of our SFR business, and on that $950 million, we probably had 30, 35 deals. So we did have some chunkier deals as Ivan mentioned in there. And he said, we have not a lot of that at all is refinance. Some of it was, but not that much. And I love it returns are right in the area that Ivan was talking about.

[Jade Rahmani:]

And you said January balance sheet production is $450 million to $500 million.

[Paul Elenio:]

We did about $450 million in January already and had about $50 million of run-off. So we had net growth in January of about $400 million. That’s correct. Was it really strong, Ivan?

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Yes, I just want to – with respect to our returns, keep in mind that it’s really exponential in a way, because my goal is to create an agency lending loan out of that, which gives us gain on sale as well as servicing revenues. So if we build our balance sheet and fees our agency business, which is part of our model on our franchise, to the extent that business can grow. It will grow the annuity on a long-term basis. So the returns become exponential where we capture at all places.

[Paul Elenio:]

That’s right.

[Jade Rahmani:]

And what’s the mix of multi-family and the bridge lending business, because I’ve always asked the commercial mortgage REITs why they don’t have an exit strategy in terms of recapturing a business, once it goes out of transition. And none of them have a good answer for that, but seems like Arbor’s unique amongst that in terms of being able to refinance that.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Yes. We are extraordinarily disciplined in our approach and I mean just off the cuff and Paul will correct me, I think a 100% of the loans that we originated in the fourth quarter and so far in the first quarter were all multi-family, I’m pretty sure. Yes, but generally it’s almost 80% to 90% is multi-family, all multifamily loans that we originate on our balance sheet, our size within a agency takeout, that’s our business model.

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes. And we – and Ivan drive, we had 98% of the fourth quarter originations are multi-family, a 100% of the first quarter origination so far were multi-family. So those percentages are always extremely high for us. And we obviously get the takeout if we can on the agency side as well.

[Jade Rahmani:]

In terms of the sustainability of the GSE volumes, is there a refinance component that you think is likely to abate in coming quarters if interest rates normalized? I know that their interest rate there are – sorry, their lending caps were basically increased, but seemed flat with what they did in 2020. So I’m not expecting their overall volumes to increase. And a little worried about what happens if rates pick up from here. So how do you think about the sustainability of the GSE business?

[Ivan Kaufman:]

I think it’s important to note different than other asset classes and more importantly, different than the single family businesses that most multifamily loans that are originated and done on five, seven and 10-year terms. And many of them are done, especially the value-add on one and three-year times. So there’s a continued flow and pipeline of loans that have to be refinanced just based on historical maturities. It’s not as though single family loans, which are the 30 maturity our interest rate driven or driven by home purchases. So that is a significant amount of business. We expect that the agency’s at the $70 billion to $80 billion level, which is similar to where it was last year. They will fill up. We will have our market share and that’ll be a strong market. There are certain times when interest rates dip like they did when they would down to 75 days plus of the 10-year that people got extraordinarily aggressive and they move very quickly. And there’s a bit of a jump. And then there are times like now where the rates jump up from 75 to 130, and people take a pause and they have to rethink where they are, but 125 basis points on a 10-year with low 3s as your interest rates are still at historical lows and anything that was originated over the last 10 years most of that will qualify for an accretive refinance of ours. So we’re quite optimistic. I think the real question comes on the purchase side, is there enough inventory out there, audit transactions going to grow is the purchase market going to be in 2021 where it wasn’t 2019, but it should be a robust big market on the multifamily side. And we should be able to maintain and get our share.

[Jade Rahmani:]

Thank you. And just last question on the credit side, looking at the agency business, I think you’ve said forbearances in the Fannie Mae DUS portfolio were 0.5% and in the Freddie Mac portfolio of 5.2%. So a tenfold difference between Freddie and Fannie have asked other folks like Walker & Dunlop to pine on the reasons why that is some of the stuff that relates to the average smaller loan size in the Freddie Mac portfolio, possibly it relates to the risk sharing nature of DUS of our strategy. So what do you think the reason is for the higher forbearance in Freddie Mac? And secondarily, are you worried at all about migration of that 5% forbearance into future delinquencies?

[Ivan Kaufman:]

So first, our forbearance specific on the small balance about perform the rest of the group. And Freddie Mac’s forbearances are higher than Fannie Mae are policies a little bit different with respect to any potential losses that come from these, we’re not concerned at all. We think the properties are well in the money. We think from September things will return to normal. And we’re fairly comfortable that we’re in a good position on all those loans. I think there was a level of dislocation our supply for forbearance properties returning to normal, but keep in mind that there’s a lot of cap rate compression right now on the multifamily side. So even if you have a little softening on rents and a little rent decline, and even a little bit you can see that’s really offset by cap rate compression. So we think the value is pretty stable and the demand from investors to buy multifamily is really outrageous. And we’re very, very comfortable with that portfolio.

[Jade Rahmani:]

Thank you.

[Operator:]

Our next question is from Lee Cooperman with the Omega Family Office. Please go ahead.

[Lee Cooperman:]

Thank you. Let me just first to congratulate you and your team Ivan. You guys have done a terrific job for the shareholders and you stand out in a class by itself, and I think you deserve a shout out and I’m leaving that. Now let me move on to more relevant stuff. Let’s talk a little bit about capital adequacy and your cost of equity versus your return on equity. And several times in the call, and you’ve said this in the past, you’ve proven to be a 100% right. You felt your stock was substantially undervalued yet, you’ve been willing to sell stock to financial growth. So I guess the answer is you sell something cheap, because you think you could reinvest the money had even more attractive terms. So maybe you could spend a little time talking about your return on every dollar you raise, what kind of return can you generate on that dollar incrementally? And any thoughts on that would be very interesting to me.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

So when we’re raising capital, it’s usually to fund our growth. So in this particular business, we have to evaluate whether we’re going to have run-off on our balance sheet portfolio, what we can add to it, and whether we can add to it accretively. And if we can increase our balance sheet portfolio and get a return north of 12%, and as much as 15% sometimes. We’ll evaluate whether it’s worth raising capital to fund that growth if this growth in our balance sheet. And it’s really just a mathematical analysis that Paul performs. He makes decisions where we surprise our loans and how accretive it is, and whether it’s worthwhile bringing in and growing the balance sheet or the accretive returns. It’s just a mathematical analysis. Paul, you want to comment on that?

[Paul Elenio:]

Sure. That’s right. Hi Lee, and yes, so we have a pretty robust pipeline. The only question is where does run-off go? And if run-off is stronger than we have those dollars to fund the growth, if it’s not, then we assess whether we want to do loans that those yields and raise capital at these prices or whatever prices we are. And historically, as you know, Lee, we’ve done, as you said a great job of being real good stewards of capital with high inside ownership. So it’s an analysis we do. And if we think we can raise capital at accretive prices to fund loans that generate, let’s say a 13% to a 14% ROE or 12% to 15%, as Ivan said, and that’s an analysis we do. And we look at it and say, if it’s accretive, then we go forward. And that’s exactly how the analysis works. And we do think that we can raise capital to fund growth that would be 13% to 15% on an ROE.

[Lee Cooperman:]

So will you sell shares because you think you can reinvest the money that would be accretive even though the stock is undervalued in your view?

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Well, it all depends on whether or not the accretive of our growth and strengthen our balance sheet and have a longer-term growth that’s…

[Lee Cooperman:]

Well, clearly trends in your balance sheet, your book value is 10.35. You stock trading over 16. Since the extent you sell stock well in excess of book value, which you’ve not been able to do in the past, it’s accretive, but on the other hand, you’re selling something that you think is worth more than you’re selling it, then only makes sense if you can basically invest the money in a return that enhances the overall picture of the company, which you’ve been able to do. And so you’re saying you can invest at 12% to 15% ROE, is that after the leverage you employ?

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Yes. So as I mentioned earlier, Lee keep in mind that that 12% to 15% is really greater than that when we captured and it’s more like a 30% to 40% return. So if we can recapture 60% to 70% of what we’re originating right, that’s a long time annuity growth and it’s the best capital raise we can do. And that goes into our analysis as well.

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes. That’s where I was going next. We’re having is on the end loan. We’re capturing a lot of that bridge business Lee into Fannie Mae and agency end loans, which not only gives us gain on sale, but it gives us 9, 10 years of servicing that’s prepayment protected and locked out at a higher multiple. So that is all factored into the equation as well.

[Lee Cooperman:]

Again, I want to congratulate you guys on negotiating and really traversing an environment, very difficult environment, extraordinarily well, congratulations.

[Paul Elenio:]

Thank you, Lee.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Thanks a lot, Lee for your support.

[Operator:]

We’ll go next to Matthew Howlett with Wolfe Research. Please go ahead.

[Matthew Howlett:]

Hey guys, thanks for taking my questions. Two questions if I may. First, you’ve got great momentum on the agency bits. So just want to confirm, there’s obviously a mission driven rule now where 50% of the volume app to be with renters at 80% of the median income. I just want to double check on the conformity of your volume versus the – those new caps. And then I think I read the Fannie increasing their GC on the multi-family business. Both of them clearly said that that they’re going to have to start operating on the new – collaboratives new capital requirement, which was higher than the prior one, whether that would have an impact on any gain on sale margin. That’s the first part.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

With respect to the mission driven, if we’re not the number one mission driven business, we’re in the top tier. We’ve always been very, very mission driven. We’re focused on workforce housing, which has been the space for and with a lot of emphasis on those forbearance loans, but fits our criteria. So we’re one of their top clients in that space and that bodes well for us. So we sets our criteria.

[Matthew Howlett:]

Got it.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

What was your second question?

[Matthew Howlett:]

On the GC, they’re both entities are going to start conforming to their new capital requirements that were unveiled in November, whether or not that would pressure any margins going forward if they do adjust a G fields.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Yes, listen, I think what the agencies are going to do is they’re going to originate. There are $70 billion or $80 billion adjusted fees up and down, depending on what their volumes are and we’re going to get our market share. And as if you’ve read, we have our own private label programs. So to the extent the GSE is widened a little bit. We’ll do more volume on a private label program, which we’re well-positioned for. So I think regardless of the environment, we have the tools to be very effective.

[Matthew Howlett:]

Got it. And then second question, just to follow-up on Lee’s question, yes, look at your capital structure, particularly like your preferred some of the unsecured debt coming. It’s a lot higher costs and where you could issue today. I’m assuming as you grow, it’s going to even improve. I mean I’m looking at 8% coupons or prefers and you probably at some point could issue at 6% and then the unsecured debt is a little bit higher, which is from stuff that’s new. What can you tell me about what you did with the balance sheet or on that those sides of the balance sheet? Can you call it the fruit callable? And I know you have to make whole premiums on the unsecured stuff, but what could you do to lower the cost of your debt capital and your preferred equity capital and maybe issue on those channels as opposed to...

[Paul Elenio:]

Sure. So let me handle the preferred side. You’re a 100%, right, Matt. It is callable. The preferred, it was – it had a core protection. That core protection has expired. It’s only $90 million, but it is callable, is trading at a coupon above eight. I’ve been looking at the market it’s possible to introduce a new instrument like that and maybe in the sixes, maybe even better as things starting to tighten. And there’s another area as well, right. There’s an orb here. Right now our dividend yield is still higher than we want it to be. And we think we’re undervalued. And if we were able to get a premium value at some point, there’s also an orb on taking that out with equity, if the dividend yield is inside of that. But right now we’re just – we’re looking at that it’s very small. We’ll continue to manage that. It won’t have a massive impact on our cost of funds, but it is something we are watching. The other areas, as you said, the senior unsecured notes are kind of all locked out and we’ve got tremendous rates on that piece of – those pieces of paper. So we’re in a good spot right now on that. And as Ivan mentioned, as we continue to march forward, we’ll see how successful we are in the future as we have been at accessing the securitization market, which continues to drive down our cost of funds. Those are the things we look at. We continue to work with our banking lines that making sure we continue to get the tightest spreads in the tightest pricing, and we’ve made significant improvements there as well. And that’s just part of our culture and that’s just part of how we run our business.

[Matthew Howlett:]

That’s great. And I really appreciate, just getting back to the preferred. I know it’s a small issue, but do you think you could maybe given the growth of the company and then go into the balance sheet, you could take – you could improve the – you could increase to maybe $100 million, $200 million in size into a 6% deal. It seems it would be accretive to the massively accretive to your investment business. So just curious on how you can take it.

[Paul Elenio:]

Yes. I have to look at it, I’ve looked at it a while ago and it was in the high 6s then I think it’s tightened since then. And I have to look at how much we can add. But again, the preferred isn’t common, it’s preferred, but it’s a good instrument and you’re going to add call protection to it when you do it. So you have to balance that the new call protection with the rate. And I think you’re right. I think we can be well inside this number and it’s something we’re going to look at.

[Matthew Howlett:]

I really appreciate it. Thanks.

[Operator:]

That’s appear we have no further questions. I’ll return the floor to Ivan Kaufman for any closing comments.

[Ivan Kaufman:]

Okay. Well, thanks, everybody for your participation, and more importantly for your support during a very, very difficult year. We had a record year in 2020, a great fourth quarter, actually a record fourth quarter. We’re off to a great start 2021. And my goal is to enter the dividend elite club and have 10 straight years of dividend growth. And I feel very optimistic about our ability to achieve that. Have a great day, everybody, and a great weekend, do well.

[Paul Elenio:]

Stay safe, everyone.

[Operator:]

This will conclude today’s program. Thanks for your participation. You may now disconnect.