SoftBank Group Corp.
Q1 2021 Earnings Call Transcript

Published: 11 Aug 2020

[Unidentified Company Representative:]

Thank you very much for waiting, ladies and gentlemen. Now we would like to start the SoftBank Group Corp. earnings results announcement for the 3-month period ended June 30, 2020. In consideration of measures to prevent the spread of the new coronavirus, we will conduct our earnings call via Internet. I would like to introduce today's participants. Mr. Masayoshi Son, Chairman and CEO.

[Masayoshi Son:]

Thank you very much. Yoshimitsu Goto, Senior Vice President and CFO. Kazuko Kimiwada, Senior Vice President and Head of Accounting Unit. Now I would like to invite Mr. Son, Chairman and CEO, to present you the earnings results and business overview. Mr. Son, please. My name is Son. Thank you very much for your attention today. So worldwide now that there are still issues not solved regarding this COVID-19, and I believe that we just see the signs of the outset of second wave in - I believe that every day is like a war. And we, the entrepreneurs, are also fighting against the various types of challenges. So when it comes to challenge, as you can see this picture of this presentation for today, about 500 years ago, this type of fighting was happening here and there in Japan. And this is one shot from there. So back then, the mounted unit of Takeda was the so-called strongest around Japan, and they were making a one-shot attack. And to be against that, Nobunaga Oda prepared the gun unit, and this gun unit was created with those soldiers. And even such mounted unit comes to you, and if you missed the shot, then you be killed instead. But because you are scared, you never be able to make the right shot. And also, it takes quite a long time to load the gun. And to solve this issue, Nobunaga Oda team actually created the horse fence, which help preventing the horse attacking you. And by having set this fence, you will be helped from the scary feeling that horses attacking you and still that you'll be able to be prepared well to aim the shot, which means defense is something always necessary to fight, and that's always very important elements for the fighting. In the COVID-19, under such pandemic situation, SoftBank Group has transformed to investment company under the SoftBank 2.0. But for us, as in a defense, with lots of defend - debt, excuse me, I believe cash is actually the defense for us. So by having our cash on hand, we will be able to enhance our defense power with that. When we have a big chaos with the first wave of COVID-19, actually, our share price went down dramatically. Of course, the credibility - the credit went down. And back then, as of the end of March, ¥4.5 trillion; in dollars, $41 billion monetization program was announced. So this is a monetization program, so called. And this - so sale or monetization assets held maximum ¥4.5 trillion will be monetized in 1 year. And then many people got surprised with this announcement because in the short-term period, can you really make such a big size of money monetized in a year, ¥4.5 trillion monetizing? So this program, as of today, actually, the progress so far is that we have already made ¥4.3 trillion monetized. So for the target of ¥4.5 trillion, actually, our progress has already achieved 95%. So for the ¥4.5 trillion in 1 year, actually, only in 4.5 months, we have already monetized ¥4.3 trillion monetization. So I believe that we will be able to exceed our target amount of ¥4.5 trillion in terms of this monetization program. So we will make sure to achieve this monetization program. Looking back, back in 2008, we experienced financial crisis. At that moment, SoftBank was also called that they is facing the bankruptcy risk, so many major media reporters or analysts, investors actually talking very bad about SoftBank back then. And - but at the same time, we actually announced 2 things as a specific measure for the situation. As a financial improvement target, we set the target for free cash flow generating ¥1 trillion. The other thing was net debt. Back then that we did carry quite a large amount of debt, which was about ¥1.9 trillion. So this was - still, we were very small company, so ¥1.9 trillion was already very large debt. About the late - last 3 years, for then, it was about ¥100 billion. And actually, free cash flow-wise, we are trying to generate 3x of that. And when we set such target, many people actually said that you never be able to achieve such a big target. And many people are very much skeptical about our target. Net debt, also, we said to have the net debt. And again, many people were skeptical about this target. So we said that we would like to achieve this 2 targets by - in 3 years. And actually, what happened was for ¥1.3 trillion free cash flow against ¥1 trillion target, and also for the halving our net debt actually reduced by 75%. So those 2 targets was achieved. Actually, we overachieved those 2 targets. That was something that we were able to make happen, which means SoftBank or I, myself, once we make any commit, we definitely achieve those. So we are always very convinced that we will be able to achieve that target and determined to do so as well. Of course, sometimes we do need to change the course. But when we change the course without any excuse that we still like to achieve the target or we announce the other target instead, but in principle, we always try to achieve whatever we said or whatever we committed. So this time, ¥4.5 trillion program, monetization program, once again, that we will make sure to achieve that. In consolidated results that I would like to elaborate a little bit from here. As I mentioned earlier, we are already transformed to investment company. So for us as an investment company, net sales, is it really important for us as a KPI? Actually, I question about that. And net income, again, as an investment company, is it really important KPI for us? But still, I believe that those 2 KPIs - and also, this is the role that we announced these so that we would like to disclose as regulated. So as of last quarter, same year, that it was ¥1.4 trillion, and this quarter is ¥1.45 trillion. So I believe that this is quite a good progress so far as in first quarter. Last year, of course, later on, in the second quarter and on, especially a number of fourth quarter, we made a big loss. And actually, it was the biggest loss ever since the foundation of the business, and many people worried about SoftBank. And once again, many people got worried and considered about SoftBank, especially because of SoftBank Vision Fund making quite a big loss. And many people wondered that Vision Fund may not be able to recover. And there, I believe that we will be able to discuss that in later pages. Net income increased by 12%, up until last year. Net sales and net income is not only KPI, we are also announcing operating income or EBIT. It is about ¥500 billion or so and a little bit bigger than we expected for the first quarter. And these numbers, from accounting point of view, that may not be too much important for a business going. But still, I would like to put some color on it. So net income last fiscal year - first quarter last fiscal year, we have onetime gains due to the derivative loss related to prepaid forward contracts using Alibaba share. This is not something that happens every year, but this is the onetime because of prepaid forward contracts. And based on share price of Alibaba, because share price was increasing about 4 years or so or we've been recording derivative loss, so we - from the accounting point of view, we've been recording a negative, but that comes back as a positive. So this is just a onetime. And those that - which is not a onetime gain was the green portion, which is the SoftBank segment, which is telecommunication business, our subsidiary, our telecom business and also SoftBank Vision Fund. And for that - this fiscal year, first quarter, Vision Fund and SoftBank segment, as you can see on your right-hand side, as colored in green and yellow, so last fiscal year, Vision Fund is doing well. But because in second and third and fourth quarter, they had a difficulty, so there are a lot of lessons learned. But still, for this first quarter fiscal '20, they are showing some recovery on top of that. And also, Sprint and T-Mobile were merged as of April this year. As of the 1st of April this year, officially, the merger of these 2 companies were certified and accepted. And along with the merger, there was a onetime gain, which is opposite here. So these are onetime one-off gain which will not recur in the coming years. On top of that, Alibaba share is rising in value. So the related to - well, the derivative loss on the related to the T-Mobile or if Alibaba shares increase, then negative derivative, the number shall be recorded. But the - well, they almost the same amount on a cumulative basis, well, what is shown on the left-hand side in blue color, well, this amount will be reversed. So this is the accounting process that we are going through. So the Alibaba shares, whenever we see the increase in the value of Alibaba shares, our assets increase. So we are happy to see the increase in Alibaba share, but - share price. But in terms of the accounting process, as you see on the right-hand side, well, the onetime derivative loss is to be recorded. So last year - this year, we had several onetime factors, onetime gains, onetime losses. Well - and the ¥100 billion, the increase up to ¥120 billion, but what is more important is the shareholder value. Today, well, those of you who are listening to this presentation, some of you must be investors. And also, the other people are analysts related to investment and also people in the media. The listeners today in investing your money in the shares, what is important? If you are investing in 10 issuers, what is the most important indicator for you? Well, among all the 10 names in your shareholding, well, the total value, is it increasing or decreasing? How much is your principal? The starting investment amount and the - how much the value you gained on top of that? If you borrowed money in order to invest in shares, you need to deduct the borrowing from the total value of your holding. And how much is the remaining value? That is the most important indicator to the investors. So to us, the investing companies, shareholder value means the result of the investment. ¥4.5 trillion monetization is what we are conducting and announced, and the asset-backed financing is the core of that. And we do this asset finance in the nonrecourse manner. So what is nonrecourse? What is the asset financing? I'd like to explain from now on. First of all, first, the big portion or the part is, as I mentioned earlier, Alibaba-related prepaid forward contracts. Some - well, a few years from now on, Alibaba shares are to be transferred and the settlement shall be made or the cash is to be repaid to complete the settlement. So it could be shares or cash. We have option to use the cash shares or cash for the settlement, Alibaba shares. Well, this means that we sold Alibaba shares in advance and received cash. But it is not that we sold the shares, but the - there's a possibility or the option to transfer it in the form of cash. So it is somewhere in between selling or the transaction via shares or cash. And the second one is a margin loan. SoftBank KK and the T-Mobile are related to this. The amount is ¥0.7 trillion. So they are putting these 2 together means ¥2.8 trillion, but the majority is prepaid forward contracts related to Alibaba. But what is common to these 2 is that the shares as the target of this transaction. Well, to SoftBank, well, there will be - this is nonrecourse to SoftBank Group. So no more obligation beyond this amount we received. So when settlement comes in a few years' time, we own shares, and what we have to do is just to transfer the balance equivalent to the transaction from both a net debt and equity value of holding. So there is no obligation beyond this amount of a settlement. And this kind of a transaction is called nonrecourse and we have no more obligation beyond this amount. It is nonrecourse to us. So net debt and assets we - the value of the assets and the equity we hold, so the ¥2.1 trillion, ¥0.7 trillion, so altogether, ¥2.8 trillion. We deduct this amount from our assets as well as from our liabilities. So that is the correct way to handle our net debt or to handle the equity value of holdings. So this graph shows this idea. So as of the end of March this year, ¥28 trillion is the total amount of the equity. So as a non-strategic and listed shares, so we have Alibaba and Sprint. And also here, we have strategic listed shares essential to our business. And the representative entity here is the telecom company. And then we have Arm and others like Vision Fund, SoftBank Vision Fund. Most of them have - they already have the public value or the value based upon their listing. So that leads us to the total amount of ¥28 trillion, and ¥6.3 trillion is the debt portion. So we shall deduct this ¥6.3 trillion so that we calculate the shareholder value of ¥21.7 trillion. I repeat this calculation again and again so I may - I shall refrain from explaining this once again. But the equity holding, equity value less net debt gives us the shareholder value at the end of March. So this is with conservation of asset-backed financing, so the financing only based upon the value of the share. And this calculation is with conservation of that financing. Now as of the 11th of August, today, as compared to the end of March, as of today, 28 - what used to be ¥28 trillion increased up to ¥30.2 trillion, and the net debt decreased from ¥6.3 trillion to ¥5.8 trillion. So deducting this ¥5.8 trillion gives us ¥24.4 trillion, so ¥2.7 trillion increase from the end of March. As I have been saying, operating income or net income rather than these indicators, well, how much asset value increased to, as the investor, I believe this is a more important indicator to us. So in that sense, ¥2.7 trillion, that is the increase in the shareholder value, and this is the only and the most important indicator to us. So these two numbers or the backups are risk conservation of asset-backed financing. Now without conservation of asset-backed financing, not just as of today, the 11th of August, but the - if we apply the same idea to the end of March, well, there was an asset financing of ¥1.4 trillion. So the ¥1.7 trillion shall be deducted from the equity value of holding and also net debt. And the shareholder value, ¥21.7 trillion, in the previous slide. And once again, on this slide, shareholder value is ¥21.7 trillion. So this means that with or without the conservation of asset-backed financing, it does not influence or affect the number or the value of shareholder value. Now as of today, asset financing is ¥2.8 trillion. So deducting this amount from equity value as well as net debt, and the shareholder value remains at the same level at ¥24.4 trillion. So asset financing, from now on, we are going to deduct this asset-backed financing portion and make this report simpler. So as of today, net debt is ¥3 trillion without conservation of asset-backed financing and the ¥27.5 trillion for the value of the share. 27 point - the ¥3 trillion for the net debt and the ¥27.8 trillion. So these are the 2 numbers I want you to remember. And in terms of the percentage of these 2, so the ¥24.4 trillion, which is the balance, this is the most important number, which is the shareholder value. ¥27.5 trillion of asset and how much a net debt do we have? So what is the percentage of these 2, the net debt and equity of shareholding? It is 11%. So let's say you have ¥10 million of a bank account, that may be your asset that you have. And you may have the 11% borrowing, which is about ¥1 million. You may have an auto loan or some other types of borrowing. So against ¥10 million of asset, ¥1 million of debt or ¥27 million of assets against debt of ¥3 million, so that is about 10% borrowing. And I'm sure - well, that level of debt is quite unsettling and makes people a little uncertain and nervous. So usually, at SoftBank Group, 25% is the level that we would always like to achieve as the - to maintain as the upper limit during the normal period. And even during the so-called abnormal periods, when the stock market experienced the sudden drop and the share prices dropped quite sharply, even such in abnormal times, well, we shall maintain the upper threshold of 35% for LTV. So this is a policy for the sound management. And even under the influence of COVID-19, well, we will never make excuses. We want to make our financing healthy so that we will never make the excuse saying that we may exceed 35%. So we will always maintain this upper limit and the threshold. And against 4 point - well, the ¥5 trillion, we already made a progress of ¥4.3 trillion of monetization. So under the abnormal times, the emergency environment, we try to remain defensive, meaning that we would like to build up cash. And we - well, our intention is to always take those, the cautious and the defensive actions to build up the cash. We don't know whether the second wave or third wave of COVID-19 may hit us in the future, but we can overcome this. Sometime in the future, we may be able to come up with the vaccination and the antibodies. And so until all these vaccination will be available to all the people, we should remain careful and cautious and always try to manage our finance so that we can maintain this low level of LTV. So the - we, at SoftBank, we are SoftBank Group on a defensive posture. At the time of the - well, the normal times, we - sometimes, we are adventurous and taking risks. But even at the time of a global financial crisis, Lehman crisis and the COVID-19, when the situation is quite unstable, we always try to the term cautious and conservative. And that is the attitude we would like to take once again this time. So ¥4.5 trillion of monetization. If that is what we are to do, first of all, the ¥27 trillion or the ¥30 trillion, that is the value of shareholding we have and we are talking about. But these are the paper gain, in other words, the numbers on the paper. And sometimes, some people criticize that if we try to sell, then the values will crash. So some people may say that these values are just fictitious, just the numbers written on the paper. Then the - what do they think about the paper money and currency? Well, they always have the same value as the values that will take different shapes. But if we try to sell our shareholding, then often, people criticize that the value will crash and the value that we have is paper value. Is that truly so? So when you see the performance, Alibaba, so we mentioned the monetization of Alibaba share and starting from April, we've been executing that. And for the monetization, Alibaba share, did it really drop? And as you can see from this graph on your left, even after the monetization program, did you see any drop of shares? Actually, it's not. T-Mobile share, we announced the sales of shares. Did it really drop? It's not really happening. SoftBank Corp. telecom business, we announced to sell a portion of shares, actually, stays very steady and stable. So under the COVID-19 situation, asset value of our group is actually increasing. So even we monetize those assets, it's - so that even we sell or monetize, and we have already executed up to ¥4.3 trillion. But still, it's not really decreasing our asset value, but showing the increase in asset value. One another announcement that we made at the time of ¥4.5 trillion program, and the purpose of use for that monetization, we have 2 object

[A - Unidentified Company Representative:]

[Operator Instructions]. So first, Mr. Sam from Reuters.

[Sam Nussey:]

Sam from Reuters. I would like to ask about the decision to drop operating profit from the earnings. I understand your explanation that you prefer the value of the assets, shareholder value. But do you think this runs the risk of increasing the image of SoftBank as being opaque and difficult to value, that there's less transparency around the numbers?

[Masayoshi Son:]

Yes. Thank you very much for your questions. Several times in the past, for example, if Alibaba share value increase, Uber share value decrease, both of them are listed company, both of them, we are just minority shareholders. However, if Uber share price increase and operating income increase, and Alibaba share price increase but the operating income does not increase, so this is unnatural. We are not operating, but why we need to show the operating income? We are the investment company. We are not doing the operation. We're just making investments. So sales, operating income, those measure is not really fit to measure our company. So starting from this fiscal year, we dropped, of course, pretax income, those from the disclosure regulation point of view that we will disclose, but basically net sales and net income. And the operating income does not really make sense at all as an investment company. From my understanding, net income, so it's the block of onetime gain and onetime loss. And even that we see the increase in Uber share price or Alibaba share price, but we would like to focus on the shareholders' value less asset value. That's the only clear indicator to measure our company and business. So that's the only one measure that we will be using going forward. Of course, from the regulation's point of view that we need to disclose that the net sales and the net income will be continuously disclosed.

[Unidentified Company Representative:]

Now we would like to take a question from Mr. Owada from Nikkei BP.

[Naotaka Owada:]

I'd like to ask you about the business model of Arm. This may be a fundamental question, but the shipment of chip is increasing continuously, exponentially from Arm. That's what you have shown. But the sales is not increasing exponentially. Why is it? And what makes the net sales grow exponentially as well? If so, when can we expect the exponential growth in the net sales? So I'd like to invite your view about the future of Arm.

[Masayoshi Son:]

So net sales and the income, what contributes to their performance is the shipment of chip for smartphone application, so both in terms of sales and the profit. Well, the chip for smartphone is the most important driver in the past 1 to 2 years. 4G to 5G, there will be a replacement from 4G to 5G. Now is the time of the transition of the technology. And also now, most of the people have smartphones. So the shipment of the chips to be used for smartphone application has been decreasing, and that is the reason why the net sales or the sales performance was not exponential. But the volume - the shipment of the chips increased for IoT application or for other applications. The chips for these purposes, applications increased in volume or in number. But most recently, 5G smartphones are being launched to the market and being sold more. And the unit price of per chip is larger for 5G, and the profit contribution is also larger for Arm. And 2023 - starting from 2023, version 9 Arm chip, so that is the new generation of Arm chips to be introduced and to be sold to the market. So already, many companies have already - well, they signed the licensing and they started designing their products for that generation. So once the production starts, well, we expect the full-fledged production of that generation to start in the year 2022 and then 2023 exponentially. Version 9 chips will be shipped and - well, we start the version, security function, AI function will be augmented, enhanced. So computing power, it will be higher as well. So this is the version that will be more profitable. So originally, well, the timing for relisting was set at 2023. And the - this is a factor that justifies that timing. And another growth driver is cloud-related business. Amazon AWS is the largest player. And Amazon AWS, their cloud service, they started the design. Well, recently, in order to, well, use the Arm chips, and the other companies are also following suit, it is a more - they are better in terms of the power consumption and the efficiency. So the cloud chips will replace other chips, and the autonomous driving will be introduced. The cars will be driven autonomously. So for these new technologies, when we acquired this company, well, the - those are the chips that didn't have much market share, but now it has grown to almost 8% of the market today. Market share is expected to expand and grow in the future, so that's another growth driver. So the value is expected to grow further for Arm. So both in terms of the defense and offense or the - we have the different alternatives and options about Arm.

[Naotaka Owada:]

So the - you will turn 63 today. Today is your birthday. And some people asked the health condition, and you mentioned that you may stay at the helm of this company even beyond the 70 years of age. So this - does this mean that you will change your previous comment that you will retire at the age of 50?

[Masayoshi Son:]

I wasn't sure about the health. Well, the - I may retire, well, when health condition is not good. But the - well, my life is only for 50 years. That is what I expected at the age of 19. Well, that is the business life back in when I was 19 years of age. But now the medicine is getting better and the people are living longer today. And the - I play golf sometimes. In the last year, in the summertime, well, I played down the par about 3 times last year, and I was convinced that I always be fit enough and healthy enough. So the - well, I wanted to mention now that I would like to remain in the business even beyond the 50 years of age, and that is what I wanted to say.

[Unidentified Company Representative:]

Next question, Mr. Igawa from Nikkei Newspaper.

[Ryo Igawa:]

Yes, my name is Igawa from Nikkei Newspaper. So strategic position of BAM that I would like to you. Earlier, you mentioned that you may consider what the option can be selling or hold ownership. But in your AI strategy, I believe this is one of the important companies. May keep holding this share, it's not the most option for you anymore? Other than NVIDIA, do you have any candidate or counterparts for negotiation for this - for the name of the company for the negotiation?

[Masayoshi Son:]

I have no comments to that. So I don't refer to any company name, but I would say we are having a negotiation. And within this negotiation, there are several range for that. But the basic idea is not selling whole in cash, but consideration can be many way or many combinations. So it's not a simple sales or anything, but we would like to continuously pursue the vision as one of our option, too.

[Ryo Igawa:]

So long hold is not the option anymore for you?

[Masayoshi Son:]

Going public is one of the options. Partial sales is one of the options. Selling in whole or whatever it is, that's one of the options as well. And the consideration option is the combination of cash and share. But when it comes to the counterpart amount, any terms at this moment, I have no comment to that at this moment.

[Unidentified Company Representative:]

Next, Mr. Hyuga from Bloomberg.

[Takahiko Hyuga:]

This is Hyuga from Bloomberg. ¥1.3 trillion of net income, net profit, so is this sustainable? How sustainable would it be? That's my question. Well, according to your presentation, almost all of them consists of a onetime factor like the asset sale as well as the, well, deduction of the tax. And the Vision Fund 2 is not very active, and there may be a limit to the listing of the portfolio companies of Vision Fund 1. So the what - I believe that you will need another growth opportunity. Now U.S.-China tension, Alibaba share, some people say - voice their concern over the future of Alibaba shares. So Mr. Son, how - or the - what is your view regarding the sustainability of your profit? Please explain.

[Masayoshi Son:]

Yes. Vision Fund 2, we use our own fund to settle - we are actually continuing investment in the Vision Fund 2. We already invested in 10 companies altogether. And in the pipeline, there are several companies already in the pipeline. Interesting companies are emerging, and they are in the pipeline. Well, back in the dot-com bubble, well, they crashed in the year 2000, and the people across the world were very critical. Investing in the Internet or the IT was supposed to be a very bad idea. However, we defended our position, and we invested a limited amount of our money in some of these IT companies, and one of them was Alibaba and some others. So once again, the unicorn bubble, well, the people - well, some investors and media are fed up with the idea of investing in unicorn, and it may be because of this coincidence with the COVID-19 pandemic. But with AI, digital transformation is possible. Well, industries, the traditional industries can introduce more digitalization by using AI, our thanks to or due to the pandemic of COVID-19. Well, that trend may accelerate even further. So my belief and my idea will remain solid and unchanged. So by using SoftBank's money, we are continuing investment in the SoftBank Vision Fund 2. But as I mentioned at the beginning, first of all, we have to defend our position. We need to be on the defensive and then, at the same time, prepare for the next round of growth. So the idea I - well, I showed you the pictures of the old warriors and the wristy guns, they're protected by the shield. But they collected as many firearms as possible to defend and also take on the offensive move. So it may not be a big amount of money, but we would like to add very good companies on to our portfolio. So did I answer your question? Next, please.

[Unidentified Company Representative:]

Due to the time constraint, we would like to end this session after taking this question. Mr. Hota [ph] from Nikkei Newspaper.

[Unidentified Analyst:]

Yes, this is Hota [ph] from Nikkei Newspaper. I have one question. Earlier, you mentioned about the investment management company, you mentioned. So under such circumstance, can you try to expand the target of the investment? And depending on the economic situation, because you focused on the unicorn investment from - for your investment policy, but is this to actually revise your investment policy, not only investing in the unicorn, and that's going to be difficult to find a good opportunity because of this circumstance? Or is there anything else?

[Masayoshi Son:]

Basic policy doesn't change. Vision Fund will be keep looking for unicorn hunting, and Vision Fund 2 and 3, that will be stays the same. But this time, this investment management subsidiary, because it has close to high liquidity investments and also, we have sold some that - those we have purchased at the end of June so that we can frequently have transactions in quite the short term, so it's quite similar to the bank deposit, but that's quite flexible in terms of liquidating, and that has been verified as well. So considering all that, I believe the management of our money and also mid- to long-term information revolution, AI-centered companies and these securities are some also the important in terms of such information revolutions, and we would like to expand our target from that sense. But at the same time, the company or business should be focused on the information revolution. So that's always our domain strategy. And also, we are the most familiar with such area, and we have a corporate philosophy in there. That's why we would like to focus on such philosophy.

[Unidentified Analyst:]

So with this COVID-19, this is not a onetime kind of a measurement, but are you going to manage this company for mid to long term?

[Masayoshi Son:]

Yes, that's correct.

[Unidentified Company Representative:]

Thank you very much. This concludes the SoftBank Group Corp. earnings results announcement for the 3-month period ended June 30, 2020. The video page of this meeting will be distributed on demand from our corporate website. Thank you very much again for joining the SoftBank Group Corp. earnings results announcement for the 3-month period ended June 30, 2020.